it’s a little sickening to think about somebody sliding into your dms to say “um actually ☝️🤓 ted bundy was That Fucking Bright™️ because he did well on his LSAT.” like??? there’s several layers of context and nuance to that song, specifically that verse, and i’m bewildered at the thought of it flying so far over someone’s head.
“…the way that I am able to think about my goals and values, contrast them with those behaviors, and then choose not to pursue those behaviors could itself be considered a sign of robust intellectual success.” is a very powerful line because you’re so right but i never would’ve thought of that myself. is the ability to differentiate one’s impulses from one’s actual goals and hold them up against the light of what society and culture deems acceptable a measure of intelligence? through the lens of humans being pack animals trying survive and generally succeed at building a support network of other humans, this feels necessary. ultimately, serial killers are failing in this regard, which proves your point regarding intelligence. i’m sure there’s more to be said about this, but my brain is soup, i just thought it was a neat direction that this could be taken in 🤠
as someone else with obsessive compulsions, i really empathize with the lens that gives you in this. like, it's considered strong and smart and a win to break out of them, not to get really good at them, and then applying that to bundy. i realize i basically just restated what you already said better, but it really stood out to me.
Another amazing deep dive that is so thought provoking, and it really again empathises your ability to synthesise, give examples to show what you mean, and how that links back to the crime media content.
I was saying in the comment to Part 1 and it’s very validating for you to mention here the aspect of women having to take care of themselves, and the narrative around them being at fault. The point you made around their intelligence being questioned on the subtle level is so striking and it sticks in my brain. Of course that is the assumption, and it just plays more into the spotlight on the woman rather than the man, with the sexism being so entrenched as this dichotomy of spotlight is purely when it’s the woman being victim of men violence. You bringing this to the cogs in my brain really is reflection inducing, and it links with the passivity in the terms used when describing the violence.
You are a much better person than i can be at this stage in my reflections, as you still find space for empathy towards Ted Bundy, with the comments made about how he won’t have the ability to feel joy the way we do, because he has given into the compulsions and has chosen to murder so many women. Why so you choose to have this empathy for him?
To your point/question about why I would have empathy for a serial killer - For me, having empathy for serial killers feels like taking away their power in my mind. Instead of seeing them as predators (which makes me feel like prey), finding a little empathy for them helps me to see them as damaged members of my own species, who are thrashing around and behaving in nobody's best interest (including their own). It makes me sorry for them, which makes them small, and that makes me feel better. I do also think that practicing empathy even when it's difficult is powerful and healing, and I think that being empathetic is generally good, but to be clear, I'm not just doing it because I think it's morally right or bc I'm some special good person. I do it because it serves a psychological, spiritual need of mine.
Some other people (for example, people who have lost someone to murder) may feel only rage towards serial killers. That's also a perfectly valid response that serves a psychological, spiritual need for that person, and I don't feel like it's morally "worse". I think it's totally normal and ethically coherent to have compassionate politics, and to also feel rage when you are under physical or emotional attack - there's no conflict here. For me, the work of growing, healing, and making sense of evil in our world is about balancing these two feelings: "That's evil, you shouldn't do that, and I never would!" with "And I can still hope for your suffering to stop". Hope this makes some sense and clarifies my thoughts here :)
Of course, your mind works in beautiful ways and i am grateful for the opportunity to talk through these topics :)
It’s a very selfless and humble way to think, it is definitely a better place to be in, and that takes a lot of inner work. I think so too that it’s better to move in the world with empathy, i have been on that journey myself more recently, and you really see people in such a more nice way. I am hoping to get at that stage where out of genuine empathy i can look at people who have done things like Ted Bundy.
Girl, you don’t have to clarify that you do this because you think it makes you a better person, anyone who is considering your music in a real way can see that you are that, without having you to say it.
The balancing is such a great point, both can exist, and you are not inconsiderate to the victims by acknowledging that that was the serial killer’s experience. So many things to take from this!
I of course didn’t finish the full thing before posting, so i have something else to add.
I want to validate you at least from my perspective on your last point. From my perspective you have explained and shown your intention with the song, it did reflect that silliness of calling him ugly and dumb considering how those words are thrown at victims by horrible people. Without too much fluff, i personally 100% got your intention.
My opinion on your worry that it did not transpire, i
Believe it relates to the very analysis of what is intelligence. People who consume the music we do don’t often analyse, or have the ability to analyse, or really are at the stage of any of the reflections you make and put into music. So that when this music is received, they think about it in their own terms, and with the tendency on the internet to ‘perform wokeness’ so to speak, they start attacking you for what they misinterpreted. I also believe that on the side of men engaging with this music, with a generalised but real from my anecdotal experiences, they get defensive, and hate being wrong, so again attack you for their own hurt. And these men specifically so ironically miss the point, to the point really they start committing that violence against you through harassment (like you mentioned the DM you received) and even threats, even claiming that these men are so smart and why they committed. They truly cannot see how that misinterpretation of Bundy is really a mirror of their interpretation of your music.
Anyway, i really enjoy your substack posts, and i don’t normally post any comments anywhere, but i feel like this is a nice space where i can share my thoughts, and i might even have people who relate to them. I may be assuming here a bit, but similar to how you find ability to share your intentions here and engage with the people who love and relate to your music, without the bulshit performative ahit and trolls on the current popular social media platforms.
I think intelligence has been split into different ideas including your own but i think all these ideas make up intelligence. I also think that people can be objectively smart. If someone suddenly got transported into a world where they couldn't communicate. People may think they are dumb, but in reality they just can't communicate. I agree with your ideas. I think everyone has different areas of intelligence. Which in a way would mean Bundy outsmarted his victims, but also in areas that they didn't need. Like if i pretended I was having a heart attack to kill someone. I may have outsmarted them in whatever cookoo area I was in. But the person I murdered would be smarter at almost everything else. Basically, intelligence isn't a scalar quantity but a mixture of skills. I could have 10 points each in baking, economics, and academics, but i could still be killed by someone who put 5 in trickery. I think some people are objectively smarter than others, but we would never know because it's almost impossible to measure all these categories.
Ted bundy's story proves that people who deny others the opportunity to prepare for a fight are just bad at fighting. He had every chance to get ready for his trial and still lost.
He was defeated in mortal combat, the one arena he seemed to value, as soon the playing field was level.
I really enjoyed and appreciate your point of view as someone who has almost been murdered and was simply told "well you should have been smarter" It had pissed me off for years and I'm so happy that you have told about how stupid that concept is. Thank you so much Penny 😊
My opinion (even though no one asked for it) as a female minor who had been called "intelligent" is that intelligence is a measure of how much society thinks you deserve to become. My teachers used to tell me how I was going "to do great things in my future" and "become important". But they didn't know that. Neither did all the kids in junior high who asked me stuff because I looked or sounded " smart". The only thing they did know was that I did well on tests, (still do for the most part) and that I have deep conversations with people when they have a different point of view. Just because I'm good at math doesn't mean I don't feel the urge to hurt people. (I have anger issues- that's another thin they don't know) And just because I'm smart doesn't mean I don't have depression. "oh, people who have depression tend to do bad on tests because bla bla bla" I do well on tests because I know what I'm doing, even if I don't sleep or eat or I get mad because of the slightest mishap. No, it's fine because I'm smart. I'm clearly doing alright, just because I'm "intelligent". Sure. This song is like a lifeline for me, thank you :)
Back again, listening to this at 10pm while writing fluffy fanfiction. That out of the way, I agree how he wasn't too smart in general and agreeing with march people who don't let others prep for the fight are just bad at fighting. How he lost when the fight was equal.
Another great discussion. I personally listen(ed) to true crime because of the paranoia and anxiety I have had since I was about four years old as someone who was raised female. I can’t walk through my own hallway without walking with my back to the wall crouching through because of my paranoia.
It helps me to learn about the victims and the killer- the trauma and horrific things they have both been through. It helps me personally to humanize the killer. They’re bad people but they’re still people.
As someone who is mentally ill I can’t not empathize with other people who are mentally ill. Not because I think they’re smart or successful or good- but because I empathize with everyone. For better or worse.
Ignore me if this was incoherent I’m just a random kid from nowhere-Michigan.
While in many respects I agree that the predator/prey dichotomy overstated his intelligence, I do think there is another argument to be made about some type of "intelligence" he had that doesn't require us to measure success against his compulsive violence. Intelligence isn't something inherent to a person, it can be built up over time; think of any complex academic topic and people who are well versed will be considered intelligent, but they weren't born with that understanding. In the same way, some people with ASD find it difficult to pick up on social cues, but over time with a lot of observation they might similarly become well versed in mannerisms and tones in people that communicate things not directly stated. Now, if we look at Bundy through the lense of empathy being a completely foreign concept to him (which I think can be taken as a given), would it not also be a type of intelligence to camouflage himself as a normal person in order to achieve his selfish desires? To us and those women, stopping for an injured person is common courtesy. However, as you pointed out, we measure a lot of things through a neuro-typical lense and I think this is a similar case. It's not a big deal for the majority of people who have a sense of empathy, but for someone like Bundy it would have taken a certain level of intelligence to realize that you can manipulate people through their humanity because it was foreign to him. Just something I thought about... very interesting read though!
I haven't killed anyone for the same for the same reason I haven't taught myself Japanese: it just isn't that important to me.
I could come up many moral reasons why I haven't killed anyone, but if I'm being really honest, I don't think I could even convince myself.
Or as you put it:
"I could capture and kill someone too if it were really important to me, and I could also bite off my own finger or toss my birth certificate into the toilet"
3 years ago today you released one of the best albums and 6 songs that got me through hard times in life! Hazards will be getting tattooed on me when i turn 18🩵
it’s a little sickening to think about somebody sliding into your dms to say “um actually ☝️🤓 ted bundy was That Fucking Bright™️ because he did well on his LSAT.” like??? there’s several layers of context and nuance to that song, specifically that verse, and i’m bewildered at the thought of it flying so far over someone’s head.
“…the way that I am able to think about my goals and values, contrast them with those behaviors, and then choose not to pursue those behaviors could itself be considered a sign of robust intellectual success.” is a very powerful line because you’re so right but i never would’ve thought of that myself. is the ability to differentiate one’s impulses from one’s actual goals and hold them up against the light of what society and culture deems acceptable a measure of intelligence? through the lens of humans being pack animals trying survive and generally succeed at building a support network of other humans, this feels necessary. ultimately, serial killers are failing in this regard, which proves your point regarding intelligence. i’m sure there’s more to be said about this, but my brain is soup, i just thought it was a neat direction that this could be taken in 🤠
as someone else with obsessive compulsions, i really empathize with the lens that gives you in this. like, it's considered strong and smart and a win to break out of them, not to get really good at them, and then applying that to bundy. i realize i basically just restated what you already said better, but it really stood out to me.
Another amazing deep dive that is so thought provoking, and it really again empathises your ability to synthesise, give examples to show what you mean, and how that links back to the crime media content.
I was saying in the comment to Part 1 and it’s very validating for you to mention here the aspect of women having to take care of themselves, and the narrative around them being at fault. The point you made around their intelligence being questioned on the subtle level is so striking and it sticks in my brain. Of course that is the assumption, and it just plays more into the spotlight on the woman rather than the man, with the sexism being so entrenched as this dichotomy of spotlight is purely when it’s the woman being victim of men violence. You bringing this to the cogs in my brain really is reflection inducing, and it links with the passivity in the terms used when describing the violence.
You are a much better person than i can be at this stage in my reflections, as you still find space for empathy towards Ted Bundy, with the comments made about how he won’t have the ability to feel joy the way we do, because he has given into the compulsions and has chosen to murder so many women. Why so you choose to have this empathy for him?
Thank you for these thoughtful comments :)
To your point/question about why I would have empathy for a serial killer - For me, having empathy for serial killers feels like taking away their power in my mind. Instead of seeing them as predators (which makes me feel like prey), finding a little empathy for them helps me to see them as damaged members of my own species, who are thrashing around and behaving in nobody's best interest (including their own). It makes me sorry for them, which makes them small, and that makes me feel better. I do also think that practicing empathy even when it's difficult is powerful and healing, and I think that being empathetic is generally good, but to be clear, I'm not just doing it because I think it's morally right or bc I'm some special good person. I do it because it serves a psychological, spiritual need of mine.
Some other people (for example, people who have lost someone to murder) may feel only rage towards serial killers. That's also a perfectly valid response that serves a psychological, spiritual need for that person, and I don't feel like it's morally "worse". I think it's totally normal and ethically coherent to have compassionate politics, and to also feel rage when you are under physical or emotional attack - there's no conflict here. For me, the work of growing, healing, and making sense of evil in our world is about balancing these two feelings: "That's evil, you shouldn't do that, and I never would!" with "And I can still hope for your suffering to stop". Hope this makes some sense and clarifies my thoughts here :)
Of course, your mind works in beautiful ways and i am grateful for the opportunity to talk through these topics :)
It’s a very selfless and humble way to think, it is definitely a better place to be in, and that takes a lot of inner work. I think so too that it’s better to move in the world with empathy, i have been on that journey myself more recently, and you really see people in such a more nice way. I am hoping to get at that stage where out of genuine empathy i can look at people who have done things like Ted Bundy.
Girl, you don’t have to clarify that you do this because you think it makes you a better person, anyone who is considering your music in a real way can see that you are that, without having you to say it.
The balancing is such a great point, both can exist, and you are not inconsiderate to the victims by acknowledging that that was the serial killer’s experience. So many things to take from this!
Thank you for taking the time to explain that :)
I of course didn’t finish the full thing before posting, so i have something else to add.
I want to validate you at least from my perspective on your last point. From my perspective you have explained and shown your intention with the song, it did reflect that silliness of calling him ugly and dumb considering how those words are thrown at victims by horrible people. Without too much fluff, i personally 100% got your intention.
My opinion on your worry that it did not transpire, i
Believe it relates to the very analysis of what is intelligence. People who consume the music we do don’t often analyse, or have the ability to analyse, or really are at the stage of any of the reflections you make and put into music. So that when this music is received, they think about it in their own terms, and with the tendency on the internet to ‘perform wokeness’ so to speak, they start attacking you for what they misinterpreted. I also believe that on the side of men engaging with this music, with a generalised but real from my anecdotal experiences, they get defensive, and hate being wrong, so again attack you for their own hurt. And these men specifically so ironically miss the point, to the point really they start committing that violence against you through harassment (like you mentioned the DM you received) and even threats, even claiming that these men are so smart and why they committed. They truly cannot see how that misinterpretation of Bundy is really a mirror of their interpretation of your music.
Anyway, i really enjoy your substack posts, and i don’t normally post any comments anywhere, but i feel like this is a nice space where i can share my thoughts, and i might even have people who relate to them. I may be assuming here a bit, but similar to how you find ability to share your intentions here and engage with the people who love and relate to your music, without the bulshit performative ahit and trolls on the current popular social media platforms.
Lots of love girlie ❤️
I think intelligence has been split into different ideas including your own but i think all these ideas make up intelligence. I also think that people can be objectively smart. If someone suddenly got transported into a world where they couldn't communicate. People may think they are dumb, but in reality they just can't communicate. I agree with your ideas. I think everyone has different areas of intelligence. Which in a way would mean Bundy outsmarted his victims, but also in areas that they didn't need. Like if i pretended I was having a heart attack to kill someone. I may have outsmarted them in whatever cookoo area I was in. But the person I murdered would be smarter at almost everything else. Basically, intelligence isn't a scalar quantity but a mixture of skills. I could have 10 points each in baking, economics, and academics, but i could still be killed by someone who put 5 in trickery. I think some people are objectively smarter than others, but we would never know because it's almost impossible to measure all these categories.
I think it is so good that you are bringing this into light I admire you for telling people about this so more people can understand this.
<3
Ted bundy's story proves that people who deny others the opportunity to prepare for a fight are just bad at fighting. He had every chance to get ready for his trial and still lost.
He was defeated in mortal combat, the one arena he seemed to value, as soon the playing field was level.
TW!
I really enjoyed and appreciate your point of view as someone who has almost been murdered and was simply told "well you should have been smarter" It had pissed me off for years and I'm so happy that you have told about how stupid that concept is. Thank you so much Penny 😊
My opinion (even though no one asked for it) as a female minor who had been called "intelligent" is that intelligence is a measure of how much society thinks you deserve to become. My teachers used to tell me how I was going "to do great things in my future" and "become important". But they didn't know that. Neither did all the kids in junior high who asked me stuff because I looked or sounded " smart". The only thing they did know was that I did well on tests, (still do for the most part) and that I have deep conversations with people when they have a different point of view. Just because I'm good at math doesn't mean I don't feel the urge to hurt people. (I have anger issues- that's another thin they don't know) And just because I'm smart doesn't mean I don't have depression. "oh, people who have depression tend to do bad on tests because bla bla bla" I do well on tests because I know what I'm doing, even if I don't sleep or eat or I get mad because of the slightest mishap. No, it's fine because I'm smart. I'm clearly doing alright, just because I'm "intelligent". Sure. This song is like a lifeline for me, thank you :)
Penny why is your face covered in girls night EP but in the original version your face isn’t?
Sry what do u mean by “original”? Like the original picture of me that we used in the collage?
Back again, listening to this at 10pm while writing fluffy fanfiction. That out of the way, I agree how he wasn't too smart in general and agreeing with march people who don't let others prep for the fight are just bad at fighting. How he lost when the fight was equal.
Another great discussion. I personally listen(ed) to true crime because of the paranoia and anxiety I have had since I was about four years old as someone who was raised female. I can’t walk through my own hallway without walking with my back to the wall crouching through because of my paranoia.
It helps me to learn about the victims and the killer- the trauma and horrific things they have both been through. It helps me personally to humanize the killer. They’re bad people but they’re still people.
As someone who is mentally ill I can’t not empathize with other people who are mentally ill. Not because I think they’re smart or successful or good- but because I empathize with everyone. For better or worse.
Ignore me if this was incoherent I’m just a random kid from nowhere-Michigan.
While in many respects I agree that the predator/prey dichotomy overstated his intelligence, I do think there is another argument to be made about some type of "intelligence" he had that doesn't require us to measure success against his compulsive violence. Intelligence isn't something inherent to a person, it can be built up over time; think of any complex academic topic and people who are well versed will be considered intelligent, but they weren't born with that understanding. In the same way, some people with ASD find it difficult to pick up on social cues, but over time with a lot of observation they might similarly become well versed in mannerisms and tones in people that communicate things not directly stated. Now, if we look at Bundy through the lense of empathy being a completely foreign concept to him (which I think can be taken as a given), would it not also be a type of intelligence to camouflage himself as a normal person in order to achieve his selfish desires? To us and those women, stopping for an injured person is common courtesy. However, as you pointed out, we measure a lot of things through a neuro-typical lense and I think this is a similar case. It's not a big deal for the majority of people who have a sense of empathy, but for someone like Bundy it would have taken a certain level of intelligence to realize that you can manipulate people through their humanity because it was foreign to him. Just something I thought about... very interesting read though!
I haven't killed anyone for the same for the same reason I haven't taught myself Japanese: it just isn't that important to me.
I could come up many moral reasons why I haven't killed anyone, but if I'm being really honest, I don't think I could even convince myself.
Or as you put it:
"I could capture and kill someone too if it were really important to me, and I could also bite off my own finger or toss my birth certificate into the toilet"
3 years ago today you released one of the best albums and 6 songs that got me through hard times in life! Hazards will be getting tattooed on me when i turn 18🩵